divine force

[Crius 0]

That's not really the issue I'm talking about, nor do I think everyone will be able to understand anything. Or that they will even care. I don't mind if much of the game is a black box, but I expect the input and output from that box to be what I'm told it should be. You can either say how it is and let people be confused, or don't and be vague enough to give the general idea and nothing more. Preferably you do both so that people can choose how deep they want to dig, though the formulas are probably best published outside the game for those that are interested. But you should never ever say how it is, when it's actually something completely different. It's bad enough when you have a question without an answer or a way to find it, but it's even worse when you have a question without an answer and the wrong way to find it. Being misled bothers me far more than not knowing. If VL on top of the health bonus increases your defenses somehow through an extremely complicated formula that no one will understand, and least mention that it does actually increase defenses, even if not the exact number.

 

If the numbers are predictable, the simplest way would be to, for example, make each skill display how much damage it does will all bonuses and modifiers accounted for, so that you can at least see how much of an effect something like DF would have for you and determine if it's worth getting. If there's a whole bunch of variables that makes that impossible, I'd appreciate being told about them at least. VB for example does that already, to an extent, so people don't have to bother with numbers like 30+spirit/2+weapon*2. VB does seem to be affected by sheltom forces though, and that's not included, which it probably could be. Other skills does not even do that much.

 

By the way, you can reduce that formula to

((Attack*(Amp*0.01+1.7+LOOKUP(Lightning_Slash,Skill_Level,Amp_Bonus))+(750+Lightning_Slash*5.5))-Mob_Defense-IF(Level<180,(180-Level)*1,0))*(1+((Mob_Defense+IF(Level<180,(180-Level)*1,0))*0.0000025575+1.198680107))+Add_Damage

[cat0048 0]

That formula is also from cabal or what have you that came out what? 7 or 8 years after pt? perhaps closer to 12 depending on when it as out in korea?

I am almost positive this game is simple in the fact that you do damage based on what your skill says how much damage you will do. which is why lvl 1s have like 10 hp or what ever, and lvl 100s have 10,000 hp.

 

either way, i seem to do the same damage with DF as without, or, it is such a negligible amount it is a worthless skill to have.

 

it could also be that the server is laggy, it is taking me far longer to kill some things than it should. its now taking 24 hits to kill something when before it was taking 15

[Zero 0]

That formula is also from cabal or what have you that came out what? 7 or 8 years after pt? perhaps closer to 12 depending on when it as out in korea?

I am almost positive this game is simple in the fact that you do damage based on what your skill says how much damage you will do. which is why lvl 1s have like 10 hp or what ever, and lvl 100s have 10,000 hp.

 

either way, i seem to do the same damage with DF as without, or, it is such a negligible amount it is a worthless skill to have.

 

it could also be that the server is laggy, it is taking me far longer to kill some things than it should. its now taking 24 hits to kill something when before it was taking 15

 

Yes, that formula is from cabal. Game development over time has more to do with graphics than programming language for things like damage formulas. Sure, some things probably got a little more complicated over time, but its not as if you couldn't have written that into PT years before, there wouldn't have be any limiter in technology that would prevent using a few variables like that. Making a formula that uses basic things like attack and the defense of a monster are quite easy to manipulate many times into something more complicated then Damage = attack - defense.

 

The effects of DF should be tested as follows: get the most basic wand to make your damage as little as possible. Find a monster which does not take much damage to kill, but would make 50-55 damage noticeable. With variation, its silly to test if your at full attack power. If your hitting anywhere between 1k-1.2k on VB [also take into account that hits twice], you won't notice any difference at 1.05k-1.25k. Notice a good portion of the DF range is still possible with the non-DF range. Only the upper 25% of the higher range is not possible with the lower range.

 

@Crius:

 

I voted for a topic that suggested giving us an option to see our damage. I think most of the problem with skill confusion comes from the fact we cannot see any numbers in game, whether it be monster HP or the damage we do. As you said, making an option like this would make noticing these things quite easy and more self explanatory so we don't have to ask questions. This would make it very simple for players to do extensive tests and possibly make programs for the general population that could do advanced calculations for them, such as dps.

 

That formula reduction is also wrong [you just lost a little under half its actual damage] and can only be reduced by replacing the 1.19... to 2.29, then deleting the first half. [Or replacing variables, such as replacing attack with 1000, knowing the skill amp as its said in game is 1.95, and reducing accuracy by rounding]. I kept it that way because it is far easier to understand what is happening when your actually creating such a formula from scratch [you can more easily see where you went wrong by breaking it up into smaller pieces].

 

-To put it into PT terminology, we know a skill like dias hits twice. We assume it is the same damage, but for arguments sake lets say it works like the example I gave. What would happen then is the first dia wave hits as the skill description says, then the second dia wave hits with +20% more power roughly. That +20% will vary based on a variety of factors [such as hitting higher defense monsters with slightly more power], but that is the most common one and the easiest to estimate for people who don't like seeing funky numbers or decimals.

 

You could sum the cast for one dias up from above as simply whatever the skill description power is x2.2, but thats really oversimplifying because higher level characters deal with much larger numbers, so small accuracy issues after multipliers become big differences from what actually happens making the formula appear quite a ways off.

[Crius 0]

The effects of DF should be tested as follows: get the most basic wand to make your damage as little as possible. Find a monster which does not take much damage to kill, but would make 50-55 damage noticeable. With variation, its silly to test if your at full attack power. If your hitting anywhere between 1k-1.2k on VB [also take into account that hits twice], you won't notice any difference at 1.05k-1.25k. Notice a good portion of the DF range is still possible with the non-DF range. Only the upper 25% of the higher range is not possible with the lower range.

 

Reset spirit as well.

 

@Crius:

 

I voted for a topic that suggested giving us an option to see our damage. I think most of the problem with skill confusion comes from the fact we cannot see any numbers in game, whether it be monster HP or the damage we do. As you said, making an option like this would make noticing these things quite easy and more self explanatory so we don't have to ask questions. This would make it very simple for players to do extensive tests and possibly make programs for the general population that could do advanced calculations for them, such as dps.

 

That formula reduction is also wrong and can only be reduced if you know the actual variables or don't mind less accuracy. [such as replacing attack with 1000, knowing the skill amp as its said in game is 1.95, etc.]

 

-To put it into PT terminology, we know a skill like dias hits twice. We assume it is the same damage, but for arguments sake lets say it works like the example I gave. What would happen then is the first dia wave hits as the skill description says, then the second dia wave hits with +20% more power roughly. That +20% will vary based on a variety of factors [such as hitting higher defense monsters with slightly more power], but that is the most common one and the easiest to estimate for people who don't like seeing funky numbers or decimals.

 

You could sum the cast for one dias up from above as simply whatever the skill description power is x2.2, but thats really oversimplifying because higher level characters deal with much larger numbers, so small accuracy issues after multipliers become big differences from what actually happens making the formula appear quite a ways off.

 

Er, why is the reduction wrong exactly? Unless I'm reading it wrong, you have X+XY+Z, which is the same thing as X(1+Y)+Z. It doesn't matter how many variables affect the actual values of X, Y or Z, it's an algebraic reduction.

 

At any rate, you're the one making the assumptions now. If it's a really complicated calculation, then yes, perhaps it would be difficult to give an accurate number to the players, but that's not the point. Just because it's difficult to do it doesn't justify giving an inaccurate number just to make them shut up and believe they understand something they don't. Some of my responsibilities at work include teaching, and while I do simplify and leave things out because my students are not ready to learn everything at once, I never lie to them and I make it clear that I'm not telling the entire truth. I actually doubt that the damage formula is as complicated as your worst-case scenario here, but I could be wrong. Either way, what I'm asking is to show it or don't, but don't lie to me about it to protect me from the harsh reality. If I can see it, I can most likely figure out how something like DF would affect my damage, and while I may not be able to predict exactly how much extra damage I will do if it varies in different scenarios, I can at least confirm that it does affect all spells (if it does) and perhaps even give an approximate number to give others an idea of how good the bonus is in practice.

[Zero 0]

I missed the 1 you added in there lol, should've read more carefully.

 

They're not really lying to you, that is the point I'm trying to make. VL adds +30% hp, there is no lie in that, it will not add 29% 31%, etc. They didn't make a claim one way or the other about if VL had something more complex behind it and what is stated on the skill is certain and we know that it works. They're only stating things they know average gamers will understand, its not really trying to hide a great hidden truth from you in my point of view. Usually a rule of thumb is if you have a lot of doubt, its best to leave it out. As an experienced gamer, you should expect them not to tell you everything. You don't hover over your HP bar/stat and see a nice breakdown of your HP formula. As I said, there are situational mechanics and those are the hardest to explain and thus are usually hidden. Situational mechanics have a lot of info, and its not usually that practical to try to explain how the computer selects which thing or how it varies based on other inputs to the average user.

 

I'm uncertain as to whether these situational skills exist in PT, but I think forces and cast speed are the best example of things that can be situational. There is a lot of debate as to whether extra damage works on AoEs, 1v1s, or both. Sometimes things also work for select skills/classes and not on other skills/classes of the same skill type [from what people claim from their testing, they can vouch for it], making it easier not to state this for users.

 

Example:

Lets say a force will boosts Atalanta's extreme rage [AoE skill], but not prs CL [Another AoE skill]. It would be complicated to explain: "This force doesn't work for [insert all non-working skills here] on AoE, doesn't work for these 1 v 1 [insert all non-working 1 v 1], but overall does [insert regular force info here". They may have their own unique attack formulas after all that don't contain the specific variable that is boosted [such as how magic classes use different variables than melee].

 

Something more certain we know for sure is how weapon speed effects certain spells but not others. Again, using atalanta, it appears with +1 weapon speed from what I've heard it will not effect vengeance [static cast rate], but every other skill they have [variable cast rate]. You have 8 classes, all with possibly different situations that have to be worked out, it is not convenient, people don't like reading a lot, etc.

 

Terminology must be standardized and I have mentioned that before in other posts. You can't have 3 things mean the same thing since its just wasting our time figuring it out. Keep in mind though that sandurr is also not the original developer, he may have developed terms he knows are the same thing but didn't standardize it with the rest of the original development. He is usually under time constraints and has a lot of work after all.

[Crius 0]

But if HP influences other things as well, that should be mentioned. It's not as far as I'm aware. It's a definite break from the traditional way HP works, and while the game may not actively lie to me, I'm definitely being misled. I'm not an "experienced gamer" (I think that for this game, I actually may have spent more time in the forum than I have playing the game), but like I said earlier, if I press the button marked "next channel", I expect the TV to switch channel and nothing else, even if for some reason the manufacturer has decided to make the volume depend on the current channel as well. That doesn't mean I necessarily have to know exactly how the volume varies, but it'd damn well better tell me if it does. Otherwise it's either poor design or poor documentation.

 

As for the rest, that may or may not be how it works, but perhaps the fact that it's complicated to explain (if it is) should be taken as an indication that it's not really a good idea to have it that way in the first place. I see no particular reason why all skills couldn't just as well be affected by a sheltom force, and it seems fairly arbitrary to pick some where it works and others where it doesn't. If it's a balance concern, that can be addressed in different ways. I'd prefer consistency to start with, and then worry about how to juggle the numbers Yes, I know it's not our beloved overlord's fault, at least not entirely, but if it can be fixed I don't see why it's not worth a try. For all we know, the formulas could be really simple and completely predictable already, we just have no idea what they are.

[Zero 0]

Certain spells may not be effected for balance sake which can't be addressed elsewhere. If I have a really fast spell and it gets the same damage boost as a slow spell, the fast spell is benefiting far more from the sheltom force than the slow one because the DPS significantly increases while only slightly increasing another. If I reduce the spells initial attack stats [without force] to compensate, I'm punishing poorer players who can't afford the best forces and making it too weak outside of force use. Reducing spell speed is also more development work, and may not make it beneficial anymore if its slowed down too much. We all like things to be simple, but sometimes you can't simplify it much further or trying to simplify it actually creates something more complicated [such as sheltom forces needing to boost damage differently for different skills]. Somewhere down the line your going to need a system that addresses the balance concerns, and that is going to be the same result in the end because it is specific to the skill and class [since we all have very different skills/classes, they have to be corrected by different amounts in different ways]

 

I agree it could certainly be worth a try, but maybe when the server's staff is less busy trying to do all kinds of other development. You do have a very valid point, it could be rather simple. The problem as players is we have no way of ever knowing for sure what all the variables are, you either A) Have to have developed the formula yourself and know how it works B) Are a newer developer modifying it [like sandurr] C) Illegally hack the server files and view the coding. Everything else is just an educated guess as to how it works.

 

I still say giving us an option to display damage could fix mostly everything, since we could do the work sandurr maybe won't get to. With seeing damage, even when its variable, its rather easy to determine how things work for ourselves, at least the general picture. Knowing that, we can request modifications, specific balance requests, formula displays on the website, and so forth on work we've already done that sandurr wouldn't have to do. The original HP/mp/stm/weight formulas were never given to us, players did that work themselves and gave it out to the general public. We could do the same for skill terms/formulas if we could see damage.

 

I think more or less we've made our points on this thread, and are coming to a better agreement. I think we both want the same thing, just disagree about whether or not its practical.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crius 0]

I still believe there are better ways to balance than to introduce complexity and inconsistency. You won't get the same results, true, but what difference does it make which one of two completely arbitrary results you get? Adjust elsewhere to compensate if necessary. Break it down into components with clear meaning. If you want a character to take less damage if the level difference is high, then factor the level into the defense formula of the character and show the deterministic result instead of the damage formula which would be situational.

 

But you're probably right, we're not going to get much further than this. You've been a good sport.