My thoughts on recent drastic changes

[DarkLink64 921]

 The server has issues, it is no doubt. 

Gold inflaction is a issue for every game based on economy, as it does in real world. Many games proved that having an economy is impossible, but some others, indeed made it work. But, games that made the economy to work, planned the economy well before the game is released - all the math was done within the development of the game.

Also, like in real life, games should have many tools for visualization of how the economy is going. I dont know if Wartale has these kind of tools, but good economy games (that wants it's economy to keep health) have a shit ton of graphs that show to devs itself, (and then, they can show to players if they want to prove something about currency problems), so they can keep track of where and what is out of the designed, planned value of currency income or outcome.

Let's say, if the devs planned that the average money an casual should make by playing normally is X, then, they designed the maps where the player would be on his/her journey and they will be good enough, item-wise, with said X aumont of money. I strongly believe it doesnt happen here in Wartale.

But hey, don't get mad on me. I'm not bashing Wartale. This game is old and the staff is small. Economy is very complex in real world, so does in a game. 

However, here is the mistake that Wartale keeps doing:

Extremely slow to react. Doesnt matter what it is - be it class balance or issues with the game itself, it takes a huge time for Wartale to change what is obviously broken or bad to the server.
Being slow to counter-act something bad is what kills the game, or what makes the community itself fight against itself and the staff. When the game is so slow to change something, players take said function, feature or class balance as if it was really intended to work like that. When the change happens after a long time, players will get, obviously and WITH REASON, frustrated with the server and, they will voice their concerns, quit the game or go to another server.

Here are many examples:

When Magic class got their formulas revamped to work based on simple multiplers instead of a list of garbage formulas, Magician got tweaked to a point he was "too" powerfull. Non-critical Death Rays was leaving almost every other class at extremely low health, critical death rays output more damage than anyone could ever receive and survive.

Magician stayed in this condition for MONTHS. Obviously many players wasted their money and switched to Magician, because, when we are on a competitive game, be it on PvP or PvE (yeah, everyone will seek for the best and most efficient class to hunt and exp too) it is normal for someone to switch to a more powerfull class. There is no reason to keep with your own class if it is obviously outclassed by another, except if you're retard like me that likes the Knight class itself, regardless of balance.

So, there was a surge of Magicians in the server and players that wasnt able to switch class, or the ones that likes their own class, started to voice their concerns. When the staff finally did a change, Magician got screwed in PvP, and Magician is still in a bad spot to this VERY DAY.

When the "fix" on broken Magician came, it is obvious that many players got upset, they felt ripped off, because changing class (and all gears) requires a lot of real money and coins. They felt they were betrayed, and that it was just a cheap tactic on many games where they release something powerfull to get shitload of money then, fix it after the profit isn't better than the damage the broken stuff is doing.

 

 

Another case was with potions. Wartale introduced a very neat feature that lets you stack potions. The feature was ingame for YEARS, then, the Staff noticed a problem - people were stacking a huge aumont of potions. I am one of them, i have a stack of hundred of thousands of mana potions. However, it took the staff YEARS to notice that this was a potential problem, and then, out of the blue, decided to limit max aumont of stacked potions to 999.

Again, people took the Stacking feature as granted in the server, something that was really designed to work like that, so, obviously, they raised their concerns, and me too. I was extremely dissappointed with the change, I felt it was the worst thing Wartale could ever do, because the change itself felt it was without a reason rather than keeping the game to display wrong numbers. (once you have more than 1000 potions, the numbers get garbled togheter with other potions nearby). I even wrote a suggestion to fix the number issue.

But I believe the concern was with players never having to hunt or buying pots again, after they farmed potions with Caravans. It is indeed a understandable problem, if the staff designed the game to be played on a cenario that the players itself has to hunt for their potions once in a while, that's ok. The problem was - and still is - the issue of potion stack wasn't foreseen, as many other things in the game, and the fix came YEARS after.


And then, the Gold Farming itself. I'm a huge fan of good Gold Sinking features. However, Wartale was released with a set of standards and features. One of them was not foreseen - gold farming. It is completely NORMAL for a game to have a map that yields more currency than another. Gold Farming on Wartale was done with a gameplay style used in P.riston Tale for a long time - it isnt new, neither revolutionary.

Strong players kill monsters on lower level maps, then someone else get the loots and keep going into the city and returning with union cores. I did that on DS/S1/S2 in officials back in 2006. It is no new stuff.

So, naturally, since the standard level of Wartale is higher than officials, the desired map for money farming was CT3. It was a sweet spot for damage received and the damage output for characters, and their expected money income.

The money received on NPC was the same as when Wartale was released in 2010, then, it was even the same than the original PT. Then, after MANY YEARS of the "exploit" being ingame, the Staff decided to fix it.

Now if you sell items before 10 minutes has passed, you sell the item for almost no gold at all. My opinion on this: I never ever saw something like this in any other game ever. It seems like a workaround, rather than a solution. A little tape for a huge crack.

But i'm also in favor of Gold Sinking.

However, Gold Sinking isn't done like that. Not when the Farming was present in the server for, like, 8~9 years? Again, players took the money farming for GRANTED - they learned to play Wartale using this farming gameplay style, it was their go-to method to make money, so it is reasonable for players to be upsed and frustrated with a change. 

Something that is a staple in the game shouldn't be changed. Instead, the solution should come in NEW features in DIFFERENT ways. If CT3 farming was too high, so, instead of killing the gameplay altogheter, why not sell NEW and DIFFERENT stuff for a higher, increased price, where it isnt game changing and attracts old players that has lot of money?

A New player isn't unable to farm at Sod neither CT3. But an old player is. An old player has lot of money if they do CT3. So, do something that an old player can feel attracted without giving a unfair advantage. Possibilities are HIGH, and i've already suggested many of them, back in 2016: 

But the game decides to take something out, like the new Monster Hunting farming, after the farming itself is preset in the game for YEARS, it's hard to keep up.

Those changes to problems that took years to happen, never solves something. The damage is already done, and who abused and benefited the most of it is in a very good spot where no one can ever reach them again.

Thats why it feels unfair. That's why it feels so infuriating and frustrating. People who abused Secret Lab "HS" for years are now in a untouchable spot, with a high level and a absurd aumont of gold on their warehouses.

Players that wasn't unable to abuse it or is simply new to the game will NEVER reach the same level of success, no matter how much they spent money into the game.

My advice is: When committing into a change, fully comitt into it. Do not stop reading feedback or set the change in a stone, where it can't change anymore. Like the Magician issue - if changing the formula was a commit effort done by the staff as a whole, so remain comitted into the change to make it work the best way it could, not leaving the class in bad shape, be it on strong or weak side, for years. Also, something that is so staple (read it, present in the game and used by many since the game conception), avoid changing it. Find different ways to mitigate the "potential" damage such mechanic or game behavior can cause, without changing the behavior or mechanic itself. Its harder, complex, takes much more time to develop, but in the end, its a win-win cenario for everyone.

Stuff like that matters much more than fancy new skills or maps!

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by DarkLink64

[ThiiaagO 8]

I am also very sad and disappointed with the changes that have occurred! it seems that each time the Wartale team is making people lose interest in the game! nerfando everything that helps new players and also Veretanos! they are the ones who have to lose, because when someone likes a game they don’t mind donating or playing for hours, lack of innovation in game play, and events are things that wear out and saturate any player, whether new or old, this game has everything to be the best, but the team is doing everything to make it increasingly saturated and difficult for any player, whether they are a veteran beginner, or someone who only plays once a day!

[DarkLink64 921]

11 minutes ago, ThiiaagO said:

I am also very sad and disappointed with the changes that have occurred! it seems that each time the Wartale team is making people lose interest in the game! nerfando everything that helps new players and also Veretanos! they are the ones who have to lose, because when someone likes a game they don’t mind donating or playing for hours, lack of innovation in game play, and events are things that wear out and saturate any player, whether new or old, this game has everything to be the best, but the team is doing everything to make it increasingly saturated and difficult for any player, whether they are a veteran beginner, or someone who only plays once a day!

I do not believe they're changing to make the game worse for players. I feel good intentions on the changes, Gold was being super cheap lately. 

My concern are with the changes itself, not their goals. I feel like the changes are just quick fixes, but quick fixes won't do for big and strutural problems within the game. Like i've said, gold farming on CT3 is in the game for years since it got released, a quick fix that kills the gameplay won't fix it.

The major problem is the severe limitations that are being imposed into players, without giving controlled options. For example, if the gold income in CT3 was too high, instead of removing this income altogheter and taking alway that gameplay style from the game, why not give a different, new option to make gold within a health and controlled enviroment, with an expected gold income pre-determined by the staff?

Its hard to accept changes that simply take something away from the game without any real options after. Unlike Class Balance, whenever a class gets too weak, the player still has the option to change class. Now, with gold sink changes, there is no real, valid option.

SoD is extremely bad designed. It was half baked game mode made by the officials, so nothing to bash on Wartale itself. It doesnt let everyone to enjoy, no matter how big the player base is, only a VERY FEW aumont of players can join into SoD, because of the player limit and player elimination mechanic.

It is also a toxic enviroment, where your sod experience can be gimped by someone else that is not in your party. Because it is simply a game of who comes and click first.

Even with that said, SoD favours high leveled and some classes than others, it is not fair across the board, and, the gold income, already got gutted (now this is a Wartale mistake) in half plus taxes.

 

[you2kyo 171]

Well said my friend. However, I believe the core problem behind this game (I'm not even talking about Wartale specifically here, just the game itself as a whole) is broken. Many features exist since forever and they are harmful to the game. Things such as:

 

- Being able to log in multiple accounts at the same time;

 

Why is it so terrible, you may ask. I tell you, this game is a MMORPG. People should be encouraged to play together instead of just being able to have an one-man party, it defeats the whole purpose of the genre. Plus, because can abuse this to farm a lot of gold, something they wouldn't be able to if only one account was allowed. (Oh, it also ruins PvP)

 

- Not thinking properly before releasing events;

 

Most events end up being extremeply "exploitable" as they are not challeging in any way. You just need a mech with Third-Eye and boom, you're already making a shit ton of money with zero effort. Also, we have events that are designed only for high level players. How is someone able to compete with a player that has much more mobility than you in events such as Black Market and Golden Hopy? It's impossible.

 

- EXP Service

 

Till this day I can't honestly understand why people pay for this. Just enjoy the freaking game dude. Why do you need to rush this process so much? The main problem here is, since most people who play this game are either BR's or Viets, and you need pounds to buy cash in this game. Third world countries or countries that doesn't have a strong currency, will fall behind those who can pay cash more easily. So what happens is an actual Black Market in the game. Just terrible.

 

This game is no longer about fun and playing as a group, it has become an abuse fiesta where you need to hold all the opportunities the admin gives you very tightly as eventually he will remove all these features from the game. So the ones who enjoyed it, good. New players who didn't, too bad...

Edited May 4, 2020 by you2kyo

[- D E A T H S T R O K E - 1,760]

22 minutes ago, ThiiaagO said:

I am also very sad and disappointed with the changes that have occurred! it seems that each time the Wartale team is making people lose interest in the game! nerfando everything that helps new players and also Veretanos! they are the ones who have to lose, because when someone likes a game they don’t mind donating or playing for hours, lack of innovation in game play, and events are things that wear out and saturate any player, whether new or old, this game has everything to be the best, but the team is doing everything to make it increasingly saturated and difficult for any player, whether they are a veteran beginner, or someone who only plays once a day!

Don't hijack this post pretending you care about newbies, you're just whining because Boss range was increased and now you can't monopolize Boss with an archer squad ?

[DarkLink64 921]

19 minutes ago, you2kyo said:

Well said my friend. However, I believe the core problem behind this game (I'm not even talking about Wartale specifically here, just the game itself as a whole) is broken. Many features exist since forever and they are harmful to the game. Things such as:

 

- Being able to log in multiple accounts at the same time;

 

Why is it so terrible, you may ask. I tell you, this game is a MMORPG. People should be encouraged to play together instead of just being able to have an one-man party, it defeats the whole purpose of the genre. Plus, because can abuse this to farm a lot of gold, something they wouldn't be able to if only one account was allowed. (Oh, it also ruins PvP)

I think the problem isn't with the possibility to log in multiple accounts. Because, lets face it, it is impossible to fix this issue. There is many ways to log into multiple accounts. It is used on any MMORPG out there. It has been a cursed problem within mmorpg game design. Search for it on google.

The real problem is how everyone is almost self-sufficient. Good MMORPGs with good designs have very specific roles for each character. If youre a Knight, you're expected to tank and dish a lot of damage at close combat. If youre an Mage, youre expected to deal a shit load of damage in a wide area from a good range, at the cost of being super fragile and having to spend money on resources. If youre a healer, youre expected, to, well, Heal your parties and give them much stronger buffs that they would normally feel their need without a healer in their parties.

Due to the nature of P.riston Tale, it is hard to achieve this. We expect (and I do expect it also) for a class to be actually viable on any scenario, but what doesnt happen (and I wish i could help more on this subject) is contributions a class can do in different ways and scenarios.

 

 

Quote

- Not thinking properly before releasing events;

 

Most events end up being extremeply "exploitable" as they are not challeging in any way. You just need a mech with Third-Eye and boom, you're already making a shit ton of money with zero effort. Also, we have events that are designed only for high level players. How is someone able to compete with a player that has much more mobility than you in events such as Black Market and Golden Hopy? It's impossible.

Yeah, you're totally right. 

There is a clear absence of good planning before releasing stuff. But I dont take this issue as for something like the devs being lazy or ignorant. I know the server and the devs for quite a long time, and this is an issue caused by simply having lack of man power. The staff is simply too small. When Wartale tried to have more devs, it all ended in those new guys stealing Wartale's code to release their own servers. FPT and REGPT is just that - a server born with stealed code from Wartale.

 

Quote

- EXP Service

 

Till this day I can't honestly understand why people pay for this. Just enjoy the freaking game dude. Why do you need to rush this process so much? The main problem here is, since most people who play this game are either BR's or Viets, and you need pounds to buy cash in this game. Third world countries or countries that doesn't have a strong currency, will fall behind those who can pay cash more easily. So what happens is an actual Black Market in the game. Just terrible.

 

This game is no longer about fun and playing as a group, it has become an abuse fiesta where you need to hold all the opportunities the admin gives you very tightly as eventually he will remove all these features from the game. So the ones who enjoyed it, good. New players who didn't, too bad...

I think the game doesnt yield a reward for sticking into it too much. It is just too much repetition. Also it is very simple and doesnt revolve around strategy. That's why its easy to bot in PT. But again, it is a problem by the game itself being released in like, 1999?

I feel the need for exping absurd. It isnt fun to sit on a chair and keep clicking on something for months, on the same map, on the very same spawn, to achieve a single level that won't yield you much of a advantage.

To me, levels should be much more easy to achieve, and have a maximum level. Actually, almost any MMORPG has this approach - Level doesnt matter much, you reach the maximum level within casual play.

Learning PvP and gearing yourself is what should take time and require grinding.

Here in Wartale stuff is the other way around - you can easily get the best items possible with a high aumont of money investment, but that's it. You cant do much more once you got the best items possible but fight for months in repetitive environment for a new level.

The only time I felt that hunting and exping was somewhat fun, was in the days of Ice Mine Party Quest (the first Party Quest released in Wartale). Why? It required players to simply roam the entire map searching for undeads. You didnt stayed behind a mechanician and write a simple bot to shift click and pot, you had to actually wander and roam the map.

Also you crossed path with other parties, it was like a real hunting enviroment.

Edited May 4, 2020 by DarkLink64

[you2kyo 171]

- That's true, the game itself is broken and I don't expect it to change. However I believe they should try to restrict somehow the amount of accounts someone can log in at the same time. I think this is the biggest existing exploit in the game. Because not only your income will be much bigger, it also lets you sell your account later if you wish to. Which in my honestly opinion is harmful to the economy too.

 

- I understand they're short on people, but they really need to test things beforehand. Otherwise, their plans might go south sooner than they expect.

 

- The main problem with P riston Tale that's always existed is not having a level cap for good. It's always about leveling more and more. With the current items we have, I think it's pointless to have a character above 150 or 152. Yet, people keep leveling like crazy to achieve what?? Perhaps if the game had a final goal in terms of leveling this wouldn't happen.

[DarkLink64 921]

13 minutes ago, you2kyo said:

- That's true, the game itself is broken and I don't expect it to change. However I believe they should try to restrict somehow the amount of accounts someone can log in at the same time. I think this is the biggest existing exploit in the game. Because not only your income will be much bigger, it also lets you sell your account later if you wish to. Which in my honestly opinion is harmful to the economy too.

 

- I understand they're short on people, but they really need to test things beforehand. Otherwise, their plans might go south sooner than they expect.

 

- The main problem with P riston Tale that's always existed is not having a level cap for good. It's always about leveling more and more. With the current items we have, I think it's pointless to have a character above 150 or 152. Yet, people keep leveling like crazy to achieve what?? Perhaps if the game had a final goal in terms of leveling this wouldn't happen.

But again, it wont solve the problem but create more frustrating to current players. It is the core subject of my thoughts -- The game ALWAYS allowed you to log into multiple accounts. Why remove it NOW, 10 years after the server is alive? Players takes this mult-logging as a granted feature. 

You take away multiple account logging, people who abused it will be in a untouchable spot against new people.


It's not like you cant do it yourself, it is fairly simple to do. All you need is some practice with alt tabbing.

[Lyseria 1,823]

Let's see what is coming next.

 

[you2kyo 171]

I know i can do it too. It's not about being something difficult or not because it's stupidly easy, especially for someone who have played MOBA's and Starcraft such as myself. My point is, if the admin's plan is to remove all the exploits from the game, why not remove or at least limit this one as well? Of course people will hate it, they're taking away all the comfort these lazy players have been having throughout all these years. Oh, and top players are already untouchable, no matter what you do. So let's remove features they take for granted.

Edited May 4, 2020 by you2kyo

[nameless10 208]

it all started when xp map and hunt map all in one location ?

[cux 205]

You are surrounding a good point to find a solution, and that's it, in my opinion, giving the chance to new players and below level 140 the chance to rivaling with those monsters you exposed above (those untouchables you said) 

In every mmorpg, once a X amount of time is passed, the games reinvent themselves. 

A good example is Lineage 2. In 2005 a level 76 player was a beast (before had been playing like 12 months nonstop to get that level). Nowadays a level 76 can be reached in 3 minutes (in the same official server). 

The point is, the game knew how to adapt the necessities of its game to the Era of players they have. 

Here is possible to do the same if staff build bridges to new players and low level ones to make them able to reach (now easily than before) that "untouchable status" you were talking about. 

I posted like 5 or 6 threads offering myself to help with this and exposing the problems related new fresh blood... But it pisses me off waste my time explaining here these kind of things knowing they will be worthless and the things will keep at this way. 

[MazaruRPT 192]

The Principle of Accessibility is what is lacking here.

 

They decision just affects non-hardcore players, which is the common player.

These players don't spend 24/7 to farm CT3, Moon Hunter and others. Looks like we have some kind of gaming punishment for missing these events.

And the gap issue just inflates even more; now is the Golden Gap.

 

These hardcore players have hundreds of GBs and Coins, but I don't, because I play healthly. And I feel the negative effect of these changes.

So I agree, there should have other way to farm in replacement of CT3. A controlled way.

But I go beyond.

 

I strongly believe this game should not have these farm ways. It should have a Quest or Raid rewarding Gold. Balanced and very well planned.

I've being saying this and I repeat: SoD was designed for Clans. It's not a way to farm!

But, if you take it as farm way, I suggest to be Acessible: the more players party you, the more easy and Gold players will won. But of course, it have to be set a limit 5kk for the best parties.

 

My big hint to the Team: Think in terms of accessibility. With this principle, will be easier to plan your new features and decisions.

[ThiiaagO 8]

1 hour ago, - D E A T H S T R O K E - said:

Don't hijack this post pretending you care about newbies, you're just whining because Boss range was increased and now you can't monopolize Boss with an archer squad ?

Ironical you say that, even if you don't even know me !! you don’t know what you i make do for newbies, how many people I helped give parts of the set boss, gold, etc., talking about my person is easy, getting to know me is hard ne? and another if i have 3 archers it was because I upgraded, equipped and dedicated myself, it didn't fall from the sky! the game does not revolve around the boss! and it's not just that reason why I commented, but others like Ct3, MH, Boss, Lag etc.

[MazaruRPT 192]

2 hours ago, DarkLink64 said:

Learning PvP and gearing yourself is what should take time and require grinding.

1000% agree!

The way it is now just kills the EndGame.

 

This game needs more dynamism, and so do it's path of progression.

If the only hard path is to gear your character, items are going to be more valueable, then the player's gear at PvP will be valued. I mean, you won't have every single player 155+ Full 144 +24.

And that's the balance I miss since the old original ones: players had different and unique gears.

However, new PvP systems and rewards can help a lot to this ideal scenario.

 

Speaking of Level Cap, I'm with you too.

If we make leveling no more trouble (for example: easy-medium path progress to 171), it falls in the "players are used to this" issue.

They may complain to this change.

 

So, if drastical changes is very dangerous, I can say that drastical changes just don't need to be immediate. Changes can be applied slowly and sneaky, in order to have a new tradition among the community.

 

May I come up with solid suggestion at this matter.

Edited May 5, 2020 by MazaruRPT

[acs03 5]

My opinion is very simple, before bringing news the basics have to be done!

[Support 4,324]

Nice work on this post @DarkLink64. I kind of agree on most of stuff you are posting and would like to pin point something:

• The lag of manpower in Dev team is something that cannot be ignored. With tons of idea coming from community as well as our own it doesn't just take a flip a finger to get all done. So that is something we have to live and adapt with.
• Restricting multiple log in will never work, it will just make a bigger gap for people because only people with better computer hardware will be able to login with multiple accounts when the restriction is applied. I won't tell you how but Google can help you on that.
• Skill balance is not a simple thing to do and it take massive time and effort. Every time we do it, we get thousand of feedback but most of time people just provide feedback to make thing good for their own character and that is not balancing. Only handful of people who actually made good contribution to this and that is what we have at this point.
• Gold Farming on any game is bad because it does nothing more than decrease value of gold and increase price of items.
• Economic? This is massive subject in even real life so for a small game like Wartale, we shouldn't even worry to think about it.
• Quick fix: with a mount of work our Dev have where people always want Tier 5 and more, I don't think we have a better option.
• Easy level up but hard to find item and pvp, I love this but changing the game play for Wartale now to that is kind of impossible but maybe thing can be changed if we find a solution

 

The one thing that always trouble me is people quickly react to any game bug that disadvantage to the game play but for anything else, thing just get kept in secret e.g:

• Gold farming with Helius or CT3
• Item Event can be used outside of event to make Gold instead of item to use as it mean to be
• Bless Castle Tower bug that took us a while to find since people decide to keep them for their advantage

 

I am pretty sure there will be more to come. Damage has been made cannot be undone but that doesn't mean it should be kept. We will continue to work on bug fix and game play to make sure thing go as it supposed to be.

[DarkLink64 921]

2 hours ago, Support said:

The lag of manpower in Dev team is something that cannot be ignored. With tons of idea coming from community as well as our own it doesn't just take a flip a finger to get all done. So that is something we have to live and adapt with.

I'm fully aware of this, do not worry! Thats why we are here to help.

 

 

2 hours ago, Support said:

Restricting multiple log in will never work, it will just make a bigger gap for people because only people with better computer hardware will be able to login with multiple accounts when the restriction is applied. I won't tell you how but Google can help you on that.

Also agreed on that. I dont know why people insist on this. Even if it was somehow blocked, i can use a VPN, use a second computer or even virtualization. There are ways to hide all virtualized windows flags that can still let a player to multi account on virtualization. Also if somehow it gets done, people are so used to it and it is already how Wartale works. Also i like options - and is what we are missing with some recent changes. In case of multi account, you can play fine with  a single client, but if you ever upgrade your computer (that, honestly, all it takes is a cheap SSD and 8GB of Ram), you can multi client fairly easy with practice.

 

 

2 hours ago, Support said:

Skill balance is not a simple thing to do and it take massive time and effort. Every time we do it, we get thousand of feedback but most of time people just provide feedback to make thing good for their own character and that is not balancing. Only handful of people who actually made good contribution to this and that is what we have at this point.

Agreed. But there are many things related to skill balance that keeps broken for quite a long time. I would do some weekly, or even after 15 days, of skill balancing. And each tweak should be light, no major and drastic changes. Also the server now can apply skill balance without maintenance, so it could be reverted or changed right back.

Skill Balance is a lost cause because, like i've said, it is done after a huge time has passed since the last changes. Magician has no reason to be on a such bad shape on PvP. There are plenty of discussions, mine included, on how magicians should behave on PvP.

 

 

2 hours ago, Support said:

Gold Farming on any game is bad because it does nothing more than decrease value of gold and increase price of items.

I strongly disagree on this one.

It is an option many players like to have. And I am one of them. Some people, specially lower levels, would like a stead and consistent way to make money. They aren't fully geared, and no one likes to waste time to make money based on random factors that are normal hunting at  Shadow Sanctuary.

And based on current feedback i'm reading, drops are extremely rare. Which is good, in some way, and is utterly bad in another. Good - it makes the item valuable. Bad - it is the UNIQUE way to get gold or coins. And it is purely based on RNG, and a very low chance.

Also, gold farming is not bad just because of it. It is bad when it is poorly designed and simply lacks any real gold sinking features (ways to spend the money) or are simply inacessible to the vast majority of players (like lucky-based Shadow Sanctuary drops).

I do play another, very old MMORPG, rival to P.riston Tale, named Ragnarok Online. To be very honest, i find the PvE enviroment of Ragnarok spetacular. It is deep, complex, and have so much content that you literally have to spent some time reading and studying the game.

But, one thing it always had - and the game is surviving quite good - is gold farming maps.  Ragnarok excels at it!

You can gold farm on Ragnarok since level 1. You can keep hunting porings and sell some drops into NPC and earn money. The money is quite good for a new comer, they'll be able to buy good gears (i mean, really good gears) if they spent enough time farming. It is so good on Ragnarok that, you have MANY options of gold farming (or should I call Zenny Farming), because, the PvE is so diverse, that many maps are actually usefull for farming based on player level, class, gears and a huge list of many variables regarding elemental enchant on weapon, elemental resistance, damage vs certain weight, size, monster type, armor, etc.

So, there is a progress path to be done - you can opt to level up slower and farm some money, to improve your character so it can farm on a better map. And it works. Once you get good enough, you start to make alternative characters so they could farm on different maps, rather than your main character. Then, you pick your money, gear your main character, and start doing farming on end game maps. And once youre fully geared, you can then go for what is the pinnacle of it's pve - MvP hunting, so the player can make a huge aumont of money if he gets lucky on a map boss. Then, he can get the super rare item and use for itself, or sell it for a huge price and then get what he needs.

The maps are full all day! There is not a single problem of having gold farming. The economy will adjust and inflate/deflate overtime. The point is, the game CLEARLY has SO MANY FREAKING OPTIONS to waste your money, that, somehow, after so many years, some private servers have a good, stable and healthy economy.





 

[you2kyo 171]

@DarkLink64 Give this man a prize. Even tough I don't agree 100% with all your ideas, I must say around 90% of what you pin pointed there is exactly what the server needs. Cheers friend

[Lyseria 1,823]

3 hours ago, Support said:

Gold Farming on any game is bad because it does nothing more than decrease value of gold and increase price of items.

I must disagree on this one, by the way it is now, you guys are impounding the unique gold income from selling items to NPC at the end of hunt and SoD. I can give you the feedback that it's not enough, plenty of times I found myself farming gold to reach a small objective like buy a new gear, buy exp potions, 3eye.... You say this is going to be fixed as the time passes, because the gold will be spent and soon our gold made by selling stuffs will be enough to survive. This is a simple and uncertain math that can lead us into a limbo of nobody spending gold and nobody farming gold. New farming methods will be created and this transition time you're expecting will be delayed or lost.

 

3 hours ago, Support said:

Economic? This is massive subject in even real life so for a small game like Wartale, we shouldn't even worry to think about it.

We should do, economics is a huge part of game, that's why we sell, buy and make offers for items, even make friends with a trusted seller. Isn't it why we play MMORPG? Interact with ppl? Economics goes in the batch.

 

3 hours ago, Support said:

thing just get kept in secret e.g:

• Gold farming with Helius or CT3

Seven years of secret LOL, I think is better change the speech to "We updated our policies of gold income" than "We didn't know about gold farming methods and we're fixing now".

[saneca3 4]

Hi im a newbie here maybe a month now sense i play this server.

Before i play 8-10 hours a day coz i can farm gold to buy new staff of my char.

But now i play 2-3 hours a day coz its realy hard to lvl up without a new item some times i login only for HG only. 

I hope u can put a farming area for us newbie...

[Clem 1,241]

First of all, Wartale have some exclusive features that make this game amazing and unique.

But we can always improve it to make this game better. And that is what the staff are doing! And that’s really nice 

 

There’s some important things to fix before making news features such as :
 

CLASS BALANCE 

Important things like class balance need to be done first, even if it take times.

—> Some suggestions has been made from players to fix it with great ideas. (I will quote @DarkLink64 with his amazing suggestions)

 

It’s not common that people have to play a character that they don’t like to EXP. There a big difference between some char in SS killing moobs.

 

DUAL PLAY AT SS

Also, the new system of EXP is amazing because SL map was a problem before with the HS. Now every people are able to exp.

But, rangers HAVE TO use a tanker (PRS/MS) that is to say dual play. 
I still don’t understand why we have to use 2 chars to play at SS when we are a ranger that is really annoying. (And 1 is afk....) 

Pets is a skill that need to be improved and it’s designed for that. Same for crystals. 

I won’t explain with details since some suggestions has been made about it. 
Class balance is one of the most important thing for the game. 
 

Thanks,

Clem.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Clem

[ChainLancer 99]

14 hours ago, DarkLink64 said:

 The server has issues, it is no doubt. 

Gold inflaction is a issue for every game based on economy, as it does in real world. Many games proved that having an economy is impossible, but some others, indeed made it work. But, games that made the economy to work, planned the economy well before the game is released - all the math was done within the development of the game.

Also, like in real life, games should have many tools for visualization of how the economy is going. I dont know if Wartale has these kind of tools, but good economy games (that wants it's economy to keep health) have a shit ton of graphs that show to devs itself, (and then, they can show to players if they want to prove something about currency problems), so they can keep track of where and what is out of the designed, planned value of currency income or outcome.

Let's say, if the devs planned that the average money an casual should make by playing normally is X, then, they designed the maps where the player would be on his/her journey and they will be good enough, item-wise, with said X aumont of money. I strongly believe it doesnt happen here in Wartale.

But hey, don't get mad on me. I'm not bashing Wartale. This game is old and the staff is small. Economy is very complex in real world, so does in a game. 

However, here is the mistake that Wartale keeps doing:

Extremely slow to react. Doesnt matter what it is - be it class balance or issues with the game itself, it takes a huge time for Wartale to change what is obviously broken or bad to the server.
Being slow to counter-act something bad is what kills the game, or what makes the community itself fight against itself and the staff. When the game is so slow to change something, players take said function, feature or class balance as if it was really intended to work like that. When the change happens after a long time, players will get, obviously and WITH REASON, frustrated with the server and, they will voice their concerns, quit the game or go to another server.

Here are many examples:

When Magic class got their formulas revamped to work based on simple multiplers instead of a list of garbage formulas, Magician got tweaked to a point he was "too" powerfull. Non-critical Death Rays was leaving almost every other class at extremely low health, critical death rays output more damage than anyone could ever receive and survive.

Magician stayed in this condition for MONTHS. Obviously many players wasted their money and switched to Magician, because, when we are on a competitive game, be it on PvP or PvE (yeah, everyone will seek for the best and most efficient class to hunt and exp too) it is normal for someone to switch to a more powerfull class. There is no reason to keep with your own class if it is obviously outclassed by another, except if you're retard like me that likes the Knight class itself, regardless of balance.

So, there was a surge of Magicians in the server and players that wasnt able to switch class, or the ones that likes their own class, started to voice their concerns. When the staff finally did a change, Magician got screwed in PvP, and Magician is still in a bad spot to this VERY DAY.

When the "fix" on broken Magician came, it is obvious that many players got upset, they felt ripped off, because changing class (and all gears) requires a lot of real money and coins. They felt they were betrayed, and that it was just a cheap tactic on many games where they release something powerfull to get shitload of money then, fix it after the profit isn't better than the damage the broken stuff is doing.

 

 

Another case was with potions. Wartale introduced a very neat feature that lets you stack potions. The feature was ingame for YEARS, then, the Staff noticed a problem - people were stacking a huge aumont of potions. I am one of them, i have a stack of hundred of thousands of mana potions. However, it took the staff YEARS to notice that this was a potential problem, and then, out of the blue, decided to limit max aumont of stacked potions to 999.

Again, people took the Stacking feature as granted in the server, something that was really designed to work like that, so, obviously, they raised their concerns, and me too. I was extremely dissappointed with the change, I felt it was the worst thing Wartale could ever do, because the change itself felt it was without a reason rather than keeping the game to display wrong numbers. (once you have more than 1000 potions, the numbers get garbled togheter with other potions nearby). I even wrote a suggestion to fix the number issue.

But I believe the concern was with players never having to hunt or buying pots again, after they farmed potions with Caravans. It is indeed a understandable problem, if the staff designed the game to be played on a cenario that the players itself has to hunt for their potions once in a while, that's ok. The problem was - and still is - the issue of potion stack wasn't foreseen, as many other things in the game, and the fix came YEARS after.


And then, the Gold Farming itself. I'm a huge fan of good Gold Sinking features. However, Wartale was released with a set of standards and features. One of them was not foreseen - gold farming. It is completely NORMAL for a game to have a map that yields more currency than another. Gold Farming on Wartale was done with a gameplay style used in P.riston Tale for a long time - it isnt new, neither revolutionary.

Strong players kill monsters on lower level maps, then someone else get the loots and keep going into the city and returning with union cores. I did that on DS/S1/S2 in officials back in 2006. It is no new stuff.

So, naturally, since the standard level of Wartale is higher than officials, the desired map for money farming was CT3. It was a sweet spot for damage received and the damage output for characters, and their expected money income.

The money received on NPC was the same as when Wartale was released in 2010, then, it was even the same than the original PT. Then, after MANY YEARS of the "exploit" being ingame, the Staff decided to fix it.

Now if you sell items before 10 minutes has passed, you sell the item for almost no gold at all. My opinion on this: I never ever saw something like this in any other game ever. It seems like a workaround, rather than a solution. A little tape for a huge crack.

But i'm also in favor of Gold Sinking.

However, Gold Sinking isn't done like that. Not when the Farming was present in the server for, like, 8~9 years? Again, players took the money farming for GRANTED - they learned to play Wartale using this farming gameplay style, it was their go-to method to make money, so it is reasonable for players to be upsed and frustrated with a change. 

Something that is a staple in the game shouldn't be changed. Instead, the solution should come in NEW features in DIFFERENT ways. If CT3 farming was too high, so, instead of killing the gameplay altogheter, why not sell NEW and DIFFERENT stuff for a higher, increased price, where it isnt game changing and attracts old players that has lot of money?

A New player isn't unable to farm at Sod neither CT3. But an old player is. An old player has lot of money if they do CT3. So, do something that an old player can feel attracted without giving a unfair advantage. Possibilities are HIGH, and i've already suggested many of them, back in 2016: 

But the game decides to take something out, like the new Monster Hunting farming, after the farming itself is preset in the game for YEARS, it's hard to keep up.

Those changes to problems that took years to happen, never solves something. The damage is already done, and who abused and benefited the most of it is in a very good spot where no one can ever reach them again.

Thats why it feels unfair. That's why it feels so infuriating and frustrating. People who abused Secret Lab "HS" for years are now in a untouchable spot, with a high level and a absurd aumont of gold on their warehouses.

Players that wasn't unable to abuse it or is simply new to the game will NEVER reach the same level of success, no matter how much they spent money into the game.

My advice is: When committing into a change, fully comitt into it. Do not stop reading feedback or set the change in a stone, where it can't change anymore. Like the Magician issue - if changing the formula was a commit effort done by the staff as a whole, so remain comitted into the change to make it work the best way it could, not leaving the class in bad shape, be it on strong or weak side, for years. Also, something that is so staple (read it, present in the game and used by many since the game conception), avoid changing it. Find different ways to mitigate the "potential" damage such mechanic or game behavior can cause, without changing the behavior or mechanic itself. Its harder, complex, takes much more time to develop, but in the end, its a win-win cenario for everyone.

Stuff like that matters much more than fancy new skills or maps!

 

Hi,

 

I took a lot of time to read.

 

For me you just write:

 

1. Current issue.
2. Statistic of issue.
3. Effect of issue.
4. Main cause of issue.
5. Countermeasure.
6. Standardization for the future.

 

I have an issue and until now Wartale can not solve. 

I do not like auto MS in particular and rangers in general but i need to play because they are god of hunting.

 

Can you give some suggestions?

 

@DarkLink64 @Wartale @Senpai @Support

2 hours ago, Clem said:

First of all, Wartale have some exclusive features that make this game amazing and unique.

But we can always improve it to make this game better. And that is what the staff are doing! And that’s really nice 

 

There’s some important things to fix before making news features such as :
 

CLASS BALANCE 

Important things like class balance need to be done first, even if it take times.

—> Some suggestions has been made from players to fix it with great ideas. (I will quote @DarkLink64 with his amazing suggestions)

 

It’s not common that people have to play a character that they don’t like to EXP. There a big difference between some char in SS killing moobs.

 

DUAL PLAY AT SS

Also, the new system of EXP is amazing because SL map was a problem before with the HS. Now every people are able to exp.

But, rangers HAVE TO use a tanker (PRS/MS) that is to say dual play. 
I still don’t understand why we have to use 2 chars to play at SS when we are a ranger that is really annoying. (And 1 is afk....) 

Pets is a skill that need to be improved and it’s designed for that. Same for crystals. 

I won’t explain with details since some suggestions has been made about it. 
Class balance is one of the most important thing for the game. 
 

Thanks,

Clem.

 

 

The answer is you need to invest more your money (donate more) to have a prs and her good gear to tank.

 

Average 1 full prs cost 25kc to 30kc.

 

Only SS, MGS, KS can tank well.

 

Other melee need more HP potion and RB.

 

I do not say its good or not because SV need donation to survive.

 

But i think we have a lot of ways. Such as new sheltom to age + 25 26 or more items for chars...

 

Game is for relax. But SS make us tired to play. (Excepting we have prs).

 

[- D E A T H S T R O K E - 1,760]

9 hours ago, Support said:

Skill balance is not a simple thing to do and it take massive time and effort. Every time we do it, we get thousand of feedback but most of time people just provide feedback to make thing good for their own character and that is not balancing. Only handful of people who actually made good contribution to this and that is what we have at this point.

I agree with this one, but the problem is:

2 hours ago, Clem said:

It’s not common that people have to play a character that they don’t like to EXP.

 

For a better PvE balance what about add standard values based on the best and the weakest: for E.g: Auto mech is the best right now, test a default monster where auto mech will take 60 sec to kill, on the bottom we have mage, so make it that mage kills the same default monster in 120 sec with death ray,  and add grades based on that from 0 [120 sec] to 10 [60 sec].

10 - 60sec

9 - 66s

8 -  72s

7 - 78s

6 - 84s

5 - 90s

....

Each class should have a grade based on its full potential and characteristics , for E.G, Assassin, due the lack of defense, should be the best out of all meeles on offense, so she should be an 8 [ 72 sec] using poison, burning etc on damage done , also, knight should be a S class against undead, even better than auto ms, etc [ i won't extend the reply, but i think you got what i said]. Grades could be created for each PvE scenario of the game, sod, party quests, AoE damage, etc

 

 

 

[Fortehluz 32]

 

15 hours ago, DarkLink64 said:

 The server has issues, it is no doubt. 

Gold inflaction is a issue for every game based on economy, as it does in real world. Many games proved that having an economy is impossible, but some others, indeed made it work. But, games that made the economy to work, planned the economy well before the game is released - all the math was done within the development of the game.

Also, like in real life, games should have many tools for visualization of how the economy is going. I dont know if Wartale has these kind of tools, but good economy games (that wants it's economy to keep health) have a shit ton of graphs that show to devs itself, (and then, they can show to players if they want to prove something about currency problems), so they can keep track of where and what is out of the designed, planned value of currency income or outcome.

Let's say, if the devs planned that the average money an casual should make by playing normally is X, then, they designed the maps where the player would be on his/her journey and they will be good enough, item-wise, with said X aumont of money. I strongly believe it doesnt happen here in Wartale.

But hey, don't get mad on me. I'm not bashing Wartale. This game is old and the staff is small. Economy is very complex in real world, so does in a game. 

However, here is the mistake that Wartale keeps doing:

Extremely slow to react. Doesnt matter what it is - be it class balance or issues with the game itself, it takes a huge time for Wartale to change what is obviously broken or bad to the server.
Being slow to counter-act something bad is what kills the game, or what makes the community itself fight against itself and the staff. When the game is so slow to change something, players take said function, feature or class balance as if it was really intended to work like that. When the change happens after a long time, players will get, obviously and WITH REASON, frustrated with the server and, they will voice their concerns, quit the game or go to another server.

Here are many examples:

When Magic class got their formulas revamped to work based on simple multiplers instead of a list of garbage formulas, Magician got tweaked to a point he was "too" powerfull. Non-critical Death Rays was leaving almost every other class at extremely low health, critical death rays output more damage than anyone could ever receive and survive.

Magician stayed in this condition for MONTHS. Obviously many players wasted their money and switched to Magician, because, when we are on a competitive game, be it on PvP or PvE (yeah, everyone will seek for the best and most efficient class to hunt and exp too) it is normal for someone to switch to a more powerfull class. There is no reason to keep with your own class if it is obviously outclassed by another, except if you're retard like me that likes the Knight class itself, regardless of balance.

So, there was a surge of Magicians in the server and players that wasnt able to switch class, or the ones that likes their own class, started to voice their concerns. When the staff finally did a change, Magician got screwed in PvP, and Magician is still in a bad spot to this VERY DAY.

When the "fix" on broken Magician came, it is obvious that many players got upset, they felt ripped off, because changing class (and all gears) requires a lot of real money and coins. They felt they were betrayed, and that it was just a cheap tactic on many games where they release something powerfull to get shitload of money then, fix it after the profit isn't better than the damage the broken stuff is doing.

 

 

Another case was with potions. Wartale introduced a very neat feature that lets you stack potions. The feature was ingame for YEARS, then, the Staff noticed a problem - people were stacking a huge aumont of potions. I am one of them, i have a stack of hundred of thousands of mana potions. However, it took the staff YEARS to notice that this was a potential problem, and then, out of the blue, decided to limit max aumont of stacked potions to 999.

Again, people took the Stacking feature as granted in the server, something that was really designed to work like that, so, obviously, they raised their concerns, and me too. I was extremely dissappointed with the change, I felt it was the worst thing Wartale could ever do, because the change itself felt it was without a reason rather than keeping the game to display wrong numbers. (once you have more than 1000 potions, the numbers get garbled togheter with other potions nearby). I even wrote a suggestion to fix the number issue.

But I believe the concern was with players never having to hunt or buying pots again, after they farmed potions with Caravans. It is indeed a understandable problem, if the staff designed the game to be played on a cenario that the players itself has to hunt for their potions once in a while, that's ok. The problem was - and still is - the issue of potion stack wasn't foreseen, as many other things in the game, and the fix came YEARS after.


And then, the Gold Farming itself. I'm a huge fan of good Gold Sinking features. However, Wartale was released with a set of standards and features. One of them was not foreseen - gold farming. It is completely NORMAL for a game to have a map that yields more currency than another. Gold Farming on Wartale was done with a gameplay style used in P.riston Tale for a long time - it isnt new, neither revolutionary.

Strong players kill monsters on lower level maps, then someone else get the loots and keep going into the city and returning with union cores. I did that on DS/S1/S2 in officials back in 2006. It is no new stuff.

So, naturally, since the standard level of Wartale is higher than officials, the desired map for money farming was CT3. It was a sweet spot for damage received and the damage output for characters, and their expected money income.

The money received on NPC was the same as when Wartale was released in 2010, then, it was even the same than the original PT. Then, after MANY YEARS of the "exploit" being ingame, the Staff decided to fix it.

Now if you sell items before 10 minutes has passed, you sell the item for almost no gold at all. My opinion on this: I never ever saw something like this in any other game ever. It seems like a workaround, rather than a solution. A little tape for a huge crack.

But i'm also in favor of Gold Sinking.

However, Gold Sinking isn't done like that. Not when the Farming was present in the server for, like, 8~9 years? Again, players took the money farming for GRANTED - they learned to play Wartale using this farming gameplay style, it was their go-to method to make money, so it is reasonable for players to be upsed and frustrated with a change. 

Something that is a staple in the game shouldn't be changed. Instead, the solution should come in NEW features in DIFFERENT ways. If CT3 farming was too high, so, instead of killing the gameplay altogheter, why not sell NEW and DIFFERENT stuff for a higher, increased price, where it isnt game changing and attracts old players that has lot of money?

A New player isn't unable to farm at Sod neither CT3. But an old player is. An old player has lot of money if they do CT3. So, do something that an old player can feel attracted without giving a unfair advantage. Possibilities are HIGH, and i've already suggested many of them, back in 2016: 

But the game decides to take something out, like the new Monster Hunting farming, after the farming itself is preset in the game for YEARS, it's hard to keep up.

Those changes to problems that took years to happen, never solves something. The damage is already done, and who abused and benefited the most of it is in a very good spot where no one can ever reach them again.

Thats why it feels unfair. That's why it feels so infuriating and frustrating. People who abused Secret Lab "HS" for years are now in a untouchable spot, with a high level and a absurd aumont of gold on their warehouses.

Players that wasn't unable to abuse it or is simply new to the game will NEVER reach the same level of success, no matter how much they spent money into the game.

My advice is: When committing into a change, fully comitt into it. Do not stop reading feedback or set the change in a stone, where it can't change anymore. Like the Magician issue - if changing the formula was a commit effort done by the staff as a whole, so remain comitted into the change to make it work the best way it could, not leaving the class in bad shape, be it on strong or weak side, for years. Also, something that is so staple (read it, present in the game and used by many since the game conception), avoid changing it. Find different ways to mitigate the "potential" damage such mechanic or game behavior can cause, without changing the behavior or mechanic itself. Its harder, complex, takes much more time to develop, but in the end, its a win-win cenario for everyone.

Stuff like that matters much more than fancy new skills or maps!

 

Nice Text Congratulations bro

Who doesn't hear advice Hear poor man ahahah,

Tamos In the first week of the Nerf, Let's wait a few more weeks that we will see the impact caused by the team

Game economy has to be done at the beginning of the launch of No after years, After 50% of the server or even more than 50% is full Gb's, only here at Wartale even though we see this

@Wartale @Senpai @Overlady

Edited May 5, 2020 by Fortehluz