Health Stat Question

[tranceislifeeee 0]

My PRS is 110 now, how much health should i put in? im going to be xping and would probably need more damage. stay at base or go to 150?

 

[Crius 0]

I went with 150, I believe, to give me a bit more health than 1100 with mixed items and VL included. A mystic health potion restores at most 1100 HP, so going higher is not very useful since I won't be in any PvP situations and not really all that much hunting either (and the benefit of even more health then is questionable), at least not anytime soon. I put the rest in enough strength for a high-level shield and spirit for damage instead. You could probably make do with less health than 150, but I find I need it to survive. Unless you got plenty of good tankers to soak up the damage for you and you're feeling brave, I wouldn't recommend base health at least.

[Setsuna 0]

I'd also go with 125-150 health.

However if you wanna max out survivability then adding more health is still useful cause VL increases your hp pots healing by 30% as well!

I figured this out when testing my priests tier 1 healing skill lvl 10 and wondered why it always healed more than it should (the idee behind this was to heal my crystal-monsters hp but it didnt work out that great so I reskilled again ) then I tested with mini healing pots that should heal for 100-200 hp. With VL on they healed up to 260hp but without they never healed more than 200.

[Crius 0]

  On 8/8/2011 at 5:11 PM, Setsuna said:

I'd also go with 125-150 health.

However if you wanna max out survivability then adding more health is still useful cause VL increases your hp pots healing by 30% as well!

I figured this out when testing my priests tier 1 healing skill lvl 10 and wondered why it always healed more than it should (the idee behind this was to heal my crystal-monsters hp but it didnt work out that great so I reskilled again ) then I tested with mini healing pots that should heal for 100-200 hp. With VL on they healed up to 260hp but without they never healed more than 200.

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It does? That's news to me. I'll have to test it some time to verify, cause that could make it worth investing up to 90 points more in health.

[Guest TFSE]

i'm in semi health build (enough stat points for equip, rest into health). I don't know about that HP pot thing, but I usually just press 1 twice and it solves the problem quite well.

[Jeremlloyd 0]

My prs'll stay at 100 health point for the moment, i'll see later if I add more health or not

[tranceislifeeee 0]

i kept 70 health and minimum for items. the rest went into spirit =]

[Setsuna 0]

  On 8/8/2011 at 5:48 PM, Crius said:

It does? That's news to me. I'll have to test it some time to verify, cause that could make it worth investing up to 90 points more in health.

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please do so ^^ maybe you can confirm it then.

 

i did some more tests and add 320 health on my priests. With VL i had almost 1800 HP and my HP just went from 200 to 1600 so my Mystic Pot healed for 1400 HP. Of course thats on the high end of what it can heal. Mystic Pot is 700-1100 HP so if im right it should heal for 910-1430 HP With VL

 

 

[Crius 0]

Well I'll be damned. I did a test just now, 10 mini potions both with and without VL, using otherwise identical equipment and removing rings and sheltoms to minimize the natural regeneration. The measurements may be off by a point or two because of it, but it shouldn't have a significant impact on the results. The health was never maxed from a potion, so the numbers are the health that was actually given per potion.

 

With VL: 256, 142, 190, 179, 178, 240, 204, 230, 248, 218 - Average of 208.5 average (195 expected), range 178-256 (expected 130-260)

Without VL: 178, 139, 194, 132, 114, 108, 168, 165, 151, 137 - Average of 148.6 average (150 expected), range 108-194 (expected 100-200)

 

Seems pretty safe to conclude that VL does in fact have an effect. There are not enough samples to verify that it is exactly 30% more, but it is likely pretty close.

 

It does raise another concern though, which I sort of had earlier when I tried to think of why potions could be more effective with VL. Unless potions were explicitly made more powerful with VL active, then there's a good chance that this was unintentional. If so, there's also a chance that VL may actually be increasing the damage you take as well (absolute damage, not relative). It would depend on the implementation why potions heal more, but if the absolute amount is greater for healing (relative amount remains the same), it's not impossible that the same thing applies to damage. It could even explain why VL had a hidden damage reduction effect in the first place; to compensate. Of course, this is just wild speculation without any proof, and probably wrong at that, but if true it would make VL ineffective. I'm not sure how to accurately test the damage you take from hits though.

[Setsuna 0]

that would make a lot of sense    realy good point.

But if that was true then people should have noticed it when hunting or fighting 1vs1.

Im gonna test this later.

[Crius 0]

I wouldn't say it makes all that much sense (or any at all), but neither does the apparent fact that VL makes health potions heal more. I really should stress that it's pretty much a shot in the dark, with rather low chances of being right. People may not notice it because they don't expect it and don't pay that close attention to their HP bar (I know I don't), but the only way to really tell would be to see if the bar doesn't seem to move less for each hit whether you have VL active or not. Well, unless you watch and write down the actual HP you have before and after each hit. It's a lot more difficult to test damage taken than potions though, since we don't know what numbers you could expect to see and therefore no range of valid values to compare against.

[Crius 0]

Oh, and perhaps I should motivate the theory a bit rather than just throw stuff out there with no explanation...

 

One explanation for why potions heal more with VL would be that they are applied to the base HP and then the VL effect is applied on top of that. E.g. if you take a potion that heals 100 HP, you increase your base HP by 100 points. With VL, your modified HP is thus increased by 130. To use an example, consider the health going from 500->600 (base HP), which would be 650->780 modified HP, which is a 130 point increase in modified HP for a 100 point base HP gain.

However, if that is the case, damage could also be applied in the same way. E.g. you lose 100 HP from a hit, which is substracted from your base HP. Or, to use the same numbers as above 600->500 base HP equals 780->650 modified HP, which is 130 points of damage. I can definitely imagine how this could be an oversight in the code, or perhaps even intentional if you combine it with the old VL damage reduction effect.

 

Or, I could be completely wrong. It's all good.

[Setsuna 0]

Its actually quite easy to test it. And guess what.. its exactly as you said. 30% more damage taken with VL on which means VL is totally useless right now.

 

I burned about 300 Pots against one and the same Undead King Hopy in ET1.

After each hit i watched my HP and used a Pot to get full HP again. I wrote down the minimum and maximum HP i had left after 1 Hit. Whenever i had less or more HP left i corrected the numbers. I let me get hit at least 100 times with and without VL and heres the result:

without VL my PRS has 914 HP  after 1 hit i had between 669 and 704 HP left, which means the UndeadKH did between 210 and 245 dmg to me.

with VL i got 1188 HP. after 1 hit i had 870-916 HP left so this time it did 272-318 Damage. Almost exactly 30% more than before.

 

Im glad you had this idea. I thought VL was still great cause it increases HP gain from Pots but it turned out to be totally useless. I hope this gets fixed soon. Like you said they probably added the 30% absorb intending to reduce the damage taken back to normal. And I could imagine that they did the same mistake as they did with armor/robe and orb aging, which caused the dmg absorb to be  higher than intended (100 + 100*0,30 = 130 but 130 - 130*0,3 = 91) just like Deaging decreases your def for more than what you got when aging it before. This could explain why VL felt so strong before. But thats just an assumption.

Anyway, the old VL was too strong but the current VL does absolutely nothing. So i'd suggest to make VL lvl 10 add 20% HP and 16% dmg absorb which should cause damage taken to stay the same. But thats up to the developers of this game ^^ i just hope they look into this soon.

 

 

[Crius 0]

It's not actually +30% absorb, it's -30% damage. Totally different in practice. The reason it was so strong before may simply be because they messed up with how it was applied in relation to the regular absorb. For instance, 500 damage, 100 absorb and -30% damage could result in either (500-100)*0.7 = 280 damage taken, or 500*0.7-100 = 250 damage taken. Just for the record, 30% increased absorb would be 500-100*1.3 = 370 damage taken. The numbers also doesn't scale, so the effect varies when the damage and absorb rating does. Using the wrong order would also be an easy mistake to make. While I would still like to see this verified a bit more to ensure that it actually works the way we're assuming (not that I don't trust you, but I've learned the hard way the value of being thorough and right now we really just now that there's something suspicious going on), I guess it's at least worth a look by someone with access to the code. If they know what to look for, finding a problem with it is probably a lot faster than continuing testing. I'll go make a post in the bug section and we'll see what happens.

 

Edit: Or maybe I won't.

 

Edit 2: And actually, there's a much easier explanation for why it felt so strong before: because +30% HP (if it actually did that and nothing else) is frickin strong. I mean, it's the equivalent of up to -23% damage on average, assuming you don't go far above the capability of a health potion (in which case the effective damage reduction could be anywhere between -23% and -0%, depending on how far above the threshold you are, and it will merely be an added health buffer).

[Setsuna 0]

By saying 30% Absorb I meant -30% damage, not adding 30% to your absorb value ^^. Poor choice of words sry.

What i meant was that adding 30% to some value and then decreasing the new value by 30% will result in a lower value than the initial one, which is exactly what happens with your defence when you age and then deage a robe,armor or orb.

So i thought it could have been something similar with VL.

But what you said could be another explanation. I think thats even more likely but lets stop making wild assumptions ^^.

 

Its a fact that i took 30% more damage with VL on. I was watching my HP for a few hundred hits so this cant just be coincidence. Unless this is some temporarily bug that happens occasionally like the mysterious robe bug that people kept talking about when i still played ept, im 99% sure that VL is realy useless right now ^^.

[Crius 0]

Oh, I'll agree that there's plenty of reason to suspect that the theory actually does pan out, but we've still just tested one scenario each. It could be some freak accident involving mini life potions, or your attributes relative to the UKH. Not likely, but then again, I went into this thinking that the theory being correct was rather unlikely to begin with. Again, it's not that I don't believe you saw the results you did or that you did something wrong, any more than I believe my testing with mini life potions went wrong somehow, but it was still just one scenario. I've made the mistake of jumping to conclusions based on limited tests before. So I'll say that there is definitely something fishy going on, and it's quite probably as theorized.

 

And hey, what's wrong with wild assumptions? That's how this got started in the first place . The trick that tends to get overlooked is the verification.

 

Edit: PS. I apologize if I seem a bit, shall we say... precise (there are less flattering words, I'm sure)? It's a work-related injury. In my line of work, either you are a fussy with the details and wording, or you become so. I tend to forget that not everyone is quite as pedantic as I and the people I normally discuss technical things with are.

[Setsuna 0]

lol, dont worry. You are absolutely right. Of course there could be some other reason for this, that i didnt take into account.

Ill just wait and hope that this gets cleared up (and fixed if necessaray) soon.

[hide 1]

ohhhh, i see, that's why i feel more stable when i tank sod r8 without VL. with VL i have to pots more often, but the mystic pot only heal up 700-1000? which means sometime i have to pots 2 times just to get full health. so no VL plz, or maybe a rework on it

[Crius 0]

No no. Normally a mystic health potion heals a maximum of 1100 HP, so going far above that will not be overly helpful, and will only let you use a potion to full effect earlier. With 1100 HP, you'd have to wait until it dropped to 0 before using a potion to guarantee full effect which most people obviously wouldn't want to, while 200 HP left would do if you have 1300 HP. I guess there's no optimal baseline here, but if you have never felt the need to use a potion before you're 1100 points below your max, you can safely get away with having less HP. Of course, there are other benefits to having more HP than the absolute minimum, such as how it would allow you to look away from the screen for a few seconds without getting killed, and increases your protection against high-powered attacks (which is useful in PvP), so in practice you may want to go a bit higher than necessary.

 

In regards to VL, potions appears to scale with your increase in HP (30%) when you use VL, so using VL will not change how many potions you need to fill the health bar. VL should therefore theoretically always help, no matter how much HP you have, since you'll also heal more per potion. However, as it also appears you're taking more damage when you use VL (also 30%), the effect of the increased HP and the increased potion healing rate is negated. Unless what we've more or less concluded above is incorrect, or there's more to it than what has been said, VL literally does nothing. You get more HP, and you heal more HP, but you also take more damage. The relationship between all of these numbers remains the same though, so if you lost 10% of your HP per hit and healed 50% per potion without VL, you will still lose 10% HP per hit and heal 50% per potion with it. You need to use the same number of potions, and you survive the same number of hits. It doesn't hurt you to use VL, but it doesn't help you either.

[hide 1]

  On 8/9/2011 at 9:20 PM, Crius said:

so using VL will not change how many potions you need to fill the health bar. VL should therefore theoretically always help, no matter how much HP you have, since you'll also heal more per potion.

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so now i have 1544 hp( no vl), i use potion at 500hp, and it usually takes 1 pot to fill me up. with VL i have 2k hp, 1 potion will also fill full bar? when i pot at 500hp? 

 

btw i like your posts, always explain so thoughtful.

[Crius 0]

Ah, well, not quite. If you use use a potion when you are at 10% HP and that maxes your HP, then that will not change whether you use VL or not since the potions recovery increase as much as your HP does. In your specific case however, since 500 HP is ~32% of your HP when you have 1544 but only ~25% when you have 2007 with VL, one potion will not fill it up the entire way. The standard 700-1100 HP recovery would be about 45-71% of 1544 HP, and 910-1430 (which is a 30% increase compared to normal) would be 45-71% of 2007 HP (30% increase over your normal HP), so it will heal the same amount of relative HP. Without VL, using a potion at 500 HP would result in 77-103% HP afterwards (32+45 to 32+71), while with VL it would be 70-96% (25+45 to 25+71).

 

If you think in terms of percent of your maximum HP (relative), VL makes no difference as to when you should use potions, but it will change a bit if you think in terms of actual HP points (absolute). In your case with 1544 base HP, if you use a potion at 55% HP whether you have VL active or not, you will know that you will definitely max your HP with a single potion, while if you heal at 28% or less, you know it will definitely not.

 

  On 8/9/2011 at 10:42 PM, hide said:

btw i like your posts, always explain so thoughtful.

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Thanks, I try, though I worry it just makes people lose interest sometimes.

[bellum1234 0]

  On 8/8/2011 at 10:27 PM, Crius said:

Oh, and perhaps I should motivate the theory a bit rather than just throw stuff out there with no explanation...

 

One explanation for why potions heal more with VL would be that they are applied to the base HP and then the VL effect is applied on top of that. E.g. if you take a potion that heals 100 HP, you increase your base HP by 100 points. With VL, your modified HP is thus increased by 130. To use an example, consider the health going from 500->600 (base HP), which would be 650->780 modified HP, which is a 130 point increase in modified HP for a 100 point base HP gain.

However, if that is the case, damage could also be applied in the same way. E.g. you lose 100 HP from a hit, which is substracted from your base HP. Or, to use the same numbers as above 600->500 base HP equals 780->650 modified HP, which is 130 points of damage. I can definitely imagine how this could be an oversight in the code, or perhaps even intentional if you combine it with the old VL damage reduction effect.

 

Or, I could be completely wrong. It's all good.

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hey, i agree with u bcuz it can explain this :

 

  Quote

VL increases your hp pots healing by 30% as well!

 

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Btw, have you ever tested the 'bonus' taken damage on the others chars?

@Crius: where did u used to train  from(95-110)?

My health stats is 224 (lvl 110 too) and it was already 200+ when i was 105. My problem is: I usually tank mobs, the mobs in MD1 or 2 can give me a shock damage when Muspell is gone(the casting animation of Muspell is long enuf to kill me  ), and my connection is not good , I dont want to waste my rebirth cores

But now, im also training a Mechanician, i 'l try pure spirit build

[Crius 0]

I never tested it at all, but if it happens for the priestess, I doubt it wouldn't for other characters. Either way, it's bad enough if only the priestess has this problem considering VL is one of the few useful skills the priestess has at tier 1-3 (Extinction is good, but not really until like 120+, and Muspell is also fairly okay but is tier 4 and is also not all that great until 120+).

 

I think I spent most of my time in MD1 from 95 and up to 106 pretty much all alone since I couldn't find any parties that didn't end up with everyone else going AFK and letting me do all the work. Then VL was changed to no longer have the damage reduction, which pretty much put a stop to that. My priestess is now 109 (I don't play a lot if you can't tell), and those levels I gained in two days and a few hours of playtime fairly recently because I was lucky enough to find two good parties in MD2.

[Setsuna 0]

with lvl 106 equip and some decent mixes you should be able to solo MD1 easily. My priest has 150 health and 124 abs and i can solo any Spawn in MD1/MD2 without problems.

I dont even bother buffing myself cause VL doesnt work, i cant feel much of a difference with Muspell either and im not sure if Divine Force works with Ice Meteorite.

[Crius 0]

I've got 112 abs (104-106 gear, some mixed) and 150 health. I'll probably tough it out until I get to 110, then desperately try to find someone who sells decent 110 priestess gear that I won't have to pay close to nine-digit numbers for, then go crazy with mixing from the rather large stockpile of sheltoms I've managed to build up thanks to Moriph. Of course, given how little time I spend actually playing the game, that might take a few weeks.

 

Muspell should give you a reasonably worthwhile boost even if you're not fighting undead (15% less damage in the long run), assuming you don't have enough abs to soak up most of the damage anyway. It's not much, but at this point I'll take anything I can get.