Meteor lost its cooldown

[poisonedshotz 0]

Poll and discuss

I personally still think dias is better since meteor is still slow animation

[Roba 0]

What do I level up now since I don't need Dias anymore  8)

[Tonberry 0]

;D

[1337person 0]

Meteorite owns now!

 

Roba, your sig image is cool.

[poisonedshotz 0]

After some exping  I realized meteor rapes ass so yup.

[Crius 0]

With Spirit Elemental (L10) active, you get the following averages: (S = spirit, m = weapon min damage, M = weapon max damage)

Diastrophism: 633 + (3/2)S + 2(m+M)

Meteorite: 1827 + (9/4)S + 3(m+M)

 

For those of you keeping score, that's 1194 + (3/4)S + m + M advantage for Meteorite over Diastrophism. I'm not entirely sure about how long it takes to cast Meteorite compared to Diastrophism (the animation that is), but it'd have to be a lot slower in order to not beat Diastrophism. Without knowing the cast speed, it's difficult to tell, but I dare say it even beats ice meteorites by quite a large margin unless it is way slower to cast. Mathematically speaking, if they are equally fast, you'd have to hit each enemy with 3 ice meteorites (which you won't) to even be close to having the same damage output, and that's assuming you have a weapon with a combined min/max of 346.5 damage (which you can't). All in all, I'm quite sure congratulations are in order for mages being the undisputed AoE master again.

 

(This does obviously not take the knockback into account, so it might hurt your survivability a bit to switch.)

[randyhuynh 0]

meteor should be stronger then DIA

 

so sandurr did the right thing

 

if u notice like every of class got no delay on there aoe T4 skill but mage so meteor of mage should had no delay long time ago

[Crius 0]

Okay, it's still quite a bit slower to cast than Ice Meteorites, so perhaps it's not better although I don't think the difference is huge. I don't have any Diastrophism skill at 100% to test the speed of though.

[Setsuna 0]

Its WAY slower than ice meteorite =P also much slower than dia but still I feel like it kills faster than dia. this might change at higher lvls cause Meteorite has a much higher static damage which gets another boost from Spirit Elemental. But this difference might be smaller once you get higher spirit and better weapons.

[Crius 0]

Saying a skill has no delay is rather misleading when it has an enormous delay from the skill animation...

Anyway, the more spirit and the stronger weapon you have (i.e. the more the non-static part of the damage increases), the more Diastrophism benefits in comparison. A theoretical 0 spirit and 0-0 weapon would mean you need to cast nearly 3 Diastrophisms for every Meteorite to do the same damage. 500 spirit and a good 120 +20 weapon gives you around 1900 damage for Diastrophism and 3700 for Meteorite (both rounded), so you'd need to cast about 2 Diastrophisms for every Meteorite for equal damage. Even if you pretty much max your spirit it won't get much better than that, and then you'll have gear and HP bad enough to die if an enemy happens to sneeze in your general direction.

[TripleR 0]

Hm... are you taking into consideration that every Diastrophism hits twice? Your numbers don't seem to take that into account, but I could be wrong though, as I read your post very quickly and didn't really bother to confirm the formulas. Let me know.

[Crius 0]

Hm... are you taking into consideration that every Diastrophism hits twice? Your numbers don't seem to take that into account, but I could be wrong though, as I read your post very quickly and didn't really bother to confirm the formulas. Let me know.

 

I think I did...

 

L10 Diastrophism: 83(+Spirit/2 +min Wand AP*2) - 128(+Spirit +max Wand AP*2), hits twice so multiply final damage by 2. With L10 Spirit Elemental, multiply static damage by 3. To get average damage per cast, compound total min and max damage and divide the result by 2:

(83*3 + S/2 + 2m + 128*3 + S + 2M) * 2 / 2 =

633 + (3/2)S + 2(m+M)

 

So unless I'm making some very embarrassing mistake that I'm overlooking, that should be correct.

[poisonedshotz 0]

Dias takes about 1.7 seconds to cast while meteor takes about 2.8 seconds, but dias is quite hard to spam is really fast unless your paying 100% attention.

[Crius 0]

Really? That big of a difference? Diastrophism is still behind with a 65% increase in DPS, but not by as much. You won't be doing more damage with it though, unless you get about 3000 spirit (a bit lower if you don't use a 120 +20 weapon, but still impossibly high).

[randyhuynh 0]

Dia hits twice per cast, meteor hits 3 time per cast (im sure, i think)

Before the change its faster to cast 2 Dia > 2 met,  5 dia > 5 met etc and people would rather Dia then meteor since they are both aoe skill, but 1 met> 1 dia

 

since the change, met is be better then dia because u can spam met and people have used it more.

 

sources,  i play a damn mage.

 

 

[Roba 0]

I didn't do any math but...

 

 

Meteor rules.

 

HOPE MY ARGUMENTS ARE SOLID

[randyhuynh 0]

also its a t4 vs t3 skill,

 

dont need math for this, if u play the char u can experience it

[Crius 0]

Like people experienced the effects of VL? Don't underestimate the theoretical aspect.

[TripleR 0]

Hm... are you taking into consideration that every Diastrophism hits twice? Your numbers don't seem to take that into account, but I could be wrong though, as I read your post very quickly and didn't really bother to confirm the formulas. Let me know.

 

I think I did...

 

L10 Diastrophism: 83(+Spirit/2 +min Wand AP*2) - 128(+Spirit +max Wand AP*2), hits twice so multiply final damage by 2. With L10 Spirit Elemental, multiply static damage by 3. To get average damage per cast, compound total min and max damage and divide the result by 2:

(83*3 + S/2 + 2m + 128*3 + S + 2M) * 2 / 2 =

633 + (3/2)S + 2(m+M)

 

So unless I'm making some very embarrassing mistake that I'm overlooking, that should be correct.

 

Hm... right. Seems correct.

Meteor should be better now, really, I was just wondering if the damage gap was that large.

 

 

But how would Diastrophism get better as you get more Spirit and/or better weapons (like Setsuna mentioned)? Maybe I'm being a bit blind or dumb here but as far as I remember, these two skills have the exact same formulas for Spirit and weapon damage. The damage difference between Diastrophism and Meteorite should be the exact same either you are level 100 or 140, no? Correct me if I'm wrong please (and I could be wrong, after all, I do suck at math). Maybe I'm just not seeing the bigger picture.

[1337person 0]

Another thing to note is that with meteorite, you do not flinch when you have an enemy targeted, whereas with Dias, you'd flinch between casts if you weren't fast enough on the right click.

 

I don't think the formulas on the website are correct, though, because the added damage to meteorite is greater than the added damage to diastrophism in game.

 

EDIT:

 

Okay, in-game, the added damage is the same BUT once you cast spirit elemental, the added damage for meteorite is much higher than it is for diastrophism.

[Crius 0]

Hm... right. Seems correct.

Meteor should be better now, really, I was just wondering if the damage gap was that large.

 

But how would Diastrophism get better as you get more Spirit and/or better weapons (like Setsuna mentioned)? Maybe I'm being a bit blind or dumb here but as far as I remember, these two skills have the exact same formulas for Spirit and weapon damage. The damage difference between Diastrophism and Meteorite should be the exact same either you are level 100 or 140, no? Correct me if I'm wrong please (and I could be wrong, after all, I do suck at math). Maybe I'm just not seeing the bigger picture.

 

Ah, well, I was perhaps a bit vague there. First of all, they don't have the same damage formula when you account for the number of hits (2 and 3 respectively). Second, Meteorite has a very large static damage compared to Diastrophism (3 times larger). If you have no spirit and no weapon, Diastrophism would need to be close to 3 times faster to cast than Meteorite just to match the damage, which is the worst case scenario. But, if you add weapons and spirit into the equation, the importance of the static damage difference is smaller (since it is a smaller part of the total damage). Diastrophism damage will never catch up to the meteorites with added spirit and weapons since Meteorites will increase in damage faster (see my original post), but the relative damage difference will decrease, and thus the best-cast scenario for Diastrophism would be as much spirit and weapon power as possible. So if without spirit and weapon you need to cast 3 Diastrophism for every Meteorite, at the numbers I mentioned (500 spirit, ~120 +20 weapon) you'd only need about 2 (1.94 if I remember correctly).

 

If you also add in a different casting speed and start talking DPS (and this is where I really should've been more clear), that is even more relevant. At just 50% faster Diastrophism casting, they will both increase equally for each point of spirit and weapon. Higher than that and Diastrophism will actually start to catch up, though as I mentioned, if we assume it's 65% faster as suggested, it will still take thousands of points of spirit to catch up regardless of your weapon. For it to be realistically possible for Diastrophism to have a DPS matching Meteorite, it would have to be approximately twice as fast, depending a little bit on spirit/weapon.

[Setsuna 0]

now consider monster abs and it gets even more complicated. I dont even know how this is calculated with multiple hit skills.

 

however that flinching problem with dias might be reason enough to choose meteorite. Also its a pain in the ass to train dias after reseting skills (i cant afford purple crystals) so ill just go with meteorite until we get that new T5 Skill.

 

[TripleR 0]

I see, thanks for clarifying.

 

But Setsuna just touched an important subject. Diastrophism ignores all kinds of defense, whereas Meteorite doesn't. If you test it on high levels players at PvP, for example, you will notice a huge difference. Meteorite will barely move their HP bar while Diastrophism will damage them quite a bit. Assuming this works equally for monsters (which I believe it does, if I remember correctly), Diastrophism could probably deal higher damage in some very rare scenarios, I guess. I don't know. Doesn't matter either. I simply agreed to remove the delay on Meteorite because I wanted it to be a useful skill once and for all, by turning it into a nice skill to use at Round 8 of SoD (because Flame Wave's area is very tricky and hard to manipulate). Honestly, I wasn't expecting Meteorite to replace Diastrophism. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying I wasn't expecting that. And since I haven't logged my mage for a few weeks now, I haven't tested it out yet so thanks for letting me know. I guess it's no problem. Tier 5 will most likely replace both Diastrophism and Meteorite anyway.

[Crius 0]

now consider monster abs and it gets even more complicated. I dont even know how this is calculated with multiple hit skills.

 

however that flinching problem with dias might be reason enough to choose meteorite. Also its a pain in the ass to train dias after reseting skills (i cant afford purple crystals) so ill just go with meteorite until we get that new T5 Skill.

 

As I understand it, monsters absorbs damage on a relative basis (i.e. a percentage of the damage) rather than on an absolute basis like players, so it shouldn't make a difference how many hits the damage is divided over (unless you want to make it really complicated and start including the possibility of a monster entering the area of effect between two hits). I could be wrong of course, in which case things will get really complicated no matter what you do. We already have 3 variables, I don't need another one or I'm gonna have to start figuring out how to make 4D graphs (good luck to me...).

 

I see, thanks for clarifying.

 

But Setsuna just touched an important subject. Diastrophism ignores all kinds of defense, whereas Meteorite doesn't. If you test it on high levels players at PvP, for example, you will notice a huge difference. Meteorite will barely move their HP bar while Diastrophism will damage them quite a bit. Assuming this works equally for monsters (which I believe it does, if I remember correctly), Diastrophism could probably deal higher damage in some very rare scenarios, I guess. I don't know. Doesn't matter either. I simply agreed to remove the delay on Meteorite because I wanted it to be a useful skill once and for all, by turning it into a nice skill to use at Round 8 of SoD (because Flame Wave's area is very tricky and hard to manipulate). Honestly, I wasn't expecting Meteorite to replace Diastrophism. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying I wasn't expecting that. And since I haven't logged my mage for a few weeks now, I haven't tested it out yet so thanks for letting me know. I guess it's no problem. Tier 5 will most likely replace both Diastrophism and Meteorite anyway.

 

Durr, what? Yes, it's a completely different matter if you talk about PvP and multiple hits. However, what you describe simply shouldn't be possible unless there is something special about Diastrophism damage. Players absorb damage on a purely absolute basis unless I've completely misunderstood it, so you want to have as high damage per hit as possible. If you do 3 separate hits at 100 damage against a target with 50 absorb, you do a grand total of 3*(100-50) = 150 damage, while with 1 hit at 300 damage, you do 300-50 = 250 damage. Since Meteorite is by far stronger per hit (and per cast), it should be far more effective than Diastrophism in that case.

 

On an unrelated note, have I mentioned how much I dislike this replacement practice of skills? I'm not quite sure how to prevent it, but it severely reduces variety. Perhaps making "chaining" more common could help.

[Crius 0]

I tested the speed myself, by using a stop watch that was started when I cast the spells and stopped as soon as the character could move again (by pressing and holding the mouse button while the animation played). I repeated this 10 times for each spell. Including the reaction time, which would probably not be much slower in a real scenario where you have to cast it again as soon as the spell is done for maximum effect, it ended up with pretty close to exactly the 1.7 seconds for Diastrophism and 2.8 seconds for Meteorite that was suggested earlier. So if you're reasonably focused on playing but perhaps not doing your absolute best, you should be seeing similar numbers out in the field, so to speak. I've honestly never noticed the flinching affecting the use of skills, only moving, but I guess that could be a factor working to the advantage of Meteorite also, though you'll also be slower to use potions.

 

Edit: Also, Diastrophism doesn't need a target apparently, so that could help as well.