Class Balance.

[marce2125 107]

Hi,

 

I read a lot of topics about class or skill balance.

Why i made this topic, because i notice that there's two way of thinking about this.

 

1)_ For some people balance means that all class can do everything in the game (pvp, hunt, exping, sod, etc). without difference.

2)_ For some people balance means that some class should be strong in some points of the game and weak in other (ex. Archer best for hunt and one of the worst exping.)

 

So i want to know what means balance for the staff 1st or 2nd thought, why, well if all know this, our suggestion will be more accurate with what you think, and stop a lot of topic that thinks in the other way.

 

This is concept topic, because for ex. if you answer first, we all know what to suggest to make all chars the same.

But if you think in 2nd option, i'm think to redefined the jobs for every class (i'm thinking in a poll for this), and then made the suggestions for the balance. 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

PS. I don't know if is in the correct section, move to the correct one if it's necessary.

Edited June 26, 2017 by marce2125

[ChookaPow 227]

both 1 and 2

 

balance for me is a class being able to do everything they want decently, but being 20% better than the second best at something and 20% worse than the second worst at something else.

 

we have 10 classes for 5 main activities: pvp(including manyx1, 1x1, teamxteam on battle arena that for some reason none goes to), hunt(including hg), exp(party quests on hunting maps and AoE exp maps), sod(clan and solo), gm events(i guess its valid to put this here?)

2 classes best at something, worst at another thing, but doable in everything.

 

in our current system right now, we have, for example: priestesses are excelent expers, but laughably bad at pvp, the very opposite goes to archers.

 

in my opinion of balancing it would go as prs being 20% better at exping than the second best, which today i believe is ss or ks, and 20% worse than the worst at pvp which i believe its mgs or ass, and as being 20% better at pvp than today's current kings which i believe are fs and ms, and 20% worse at exp than ass or ms when going spark

[ChookaPow 227]

Just now, ChookaPow said:

in my opinion of balancing it would go as prs being 20% better at exping than the second best, which today i believe is ss or ks, and 20% worse than the worst at pvp which i believe its mgs or ass, and as being 20% better at pvp than today's current kings which i believe are fs and ms, and 20% worse at exp than ass or ms when going spark

 

and just not to leave misunderstandings, this is just a dumb, clearly untrue layout for the sole purpose of making an example

[DarkLink64 921]

In my opinion, both concepts should be used in balancing a game.

 

 

No class should be totally useless at any given scenario. However, classes should not be 100% equal, if they were, the game wouldn't have any kind of fun.

Classes should have strong and weak points, where one class has an advantage against other, but is weak to another one. 

 

To me, the rock paper scissors concept is the best for balancing games.

 

[Guest -Linh-]

Balance means the class should be able to do what it is for by its description not all class should be able to do the same thing which most of the people is trying to do.

1. Melee class:

- Should be able to tank and kill

- Melee class should be strong at 1 on 1 skill, not AOE

- Each melee class should also be able to provide decent damage base on their skill type for example Demon for FS or UD for KS

- The balance also need to consider the mob type on each map to ensure all melee have a fair share in the map

2. Ranger class:

- As Ranger, the ability to tank is minimal hence it need to have higher damage

- Ranger is also a support class hence their buff skill to melee need to be better. Since the dmg is already high on melee, a buff for Def, Abs or Ava would be a better choice

3. Magic class:

- The main roles of this class support and AOE

- As such AOE should be only best of this class so that they can provide the main damage to party

- Also to avoid this class abusing AOE ability and only solo instead of PT, their ability to tank shoulder lower so that they need tanker and ranger in their pt to increase their ability to tank

 

That is my 2 cents, you can go from there if you want :)

[caiobuzati 10]

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Edited June 29, 2017 by caiobuzati

[caiobuzati 10]

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Edited June 29, 2017 by caiobuzati

[kuegen 36]

On 2017-6-26 at 11:51 PM, DarkLink64 said:

In my opinion, both concepts should be used in balancing a game.

 

 

No class should be totally useless at any given scenario. However, classes should not be 100% equal, if they were, the game wouldn't have any kind of fun.

Classes should have strong and weak points, where one class has an advantage against other, but is weak to another one. 

 

To me, the rock paper scissors concept is the best for balancing games.

 

As you are a tester i wold like to know what is the ks weak point? since u say classs should have them i dont see any for the ks, it has a beast Aoe what it realy should not have, it kills and tank alot on pvp pve so tell me were is the balance ur talking about?.

[kuegen 36]

Wold love a awnser to this^

[DarkLink64 921]

KS is Strong on PvE due to a Bug, that i've already reported. Lightning Sword ignores enemy ABS when stunning the monster. Stun chance is 10% per bolt, where first bolt always stun. Thats why, on SL, it deals 3000 damage while normal hits deals 70~80.

 

If you take this bug out of the equation, KS is not THAT great on PvE.

 

Knight role in the game is already well executed - it is an all-around class, that is good at everything, but do not excel at anything.

 

1v1 PvP - Many classess outdamage KS on 1v1, like Pikeman, Fighter, Archer. By extention, they outdamage in 1v1 Hunting also against non-undead.

1v1 vs Undead - Priestess do it better with Extinction, and does it in unlimited AoE.

AoE - Mage, Shaman, performs better in AoE than KS (assuming there isn't the Lightning Sword bug). 

Attack Speed - Another important factor, many classes are a bit quicker than KS

Tanking - Knight is very good at tanking, however Mechanician is a much better tanking character.

 

 

 

So, I strongly believe Knight is extremely well balanced here, and I use Knight as a paremeter for comparison on my tests. However, it seems that this high damage on Lightning Sword seems to be not going away any soon, because it's ingame for quite a long time, despite early bug reports. On my test data collecting, i'm doing some aggresive PvE improvment suggestions for other classes, so they can at least reach some of Knight Lightning Sword damage output. 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by DarkLink64

[fabio95 27]

On 26/06/2017 at 9:56 PM, MIB said:

Balance means the class should be able to do what it is for by its description not all class should be able to do the same thing which most of the people is trying to do.

1. Melee class:

- Should be able to tank and kill

 

yes i agree with you. but how about ms ? he's a good tank but do not kill. the idea is buff sparks dmg . actually the calc of spark's dmg is 300 - 400 (YOUR LV  x 4)  but the dmg is still too low . while ks can 2k DMG or more on AoE skill and tank so much WHY MS CAN'T HAVE DMG ON SPARK (main AoE skill) . Now i changed my build for a power / tank .  My dmg is higher than Spark build. But i can hit only 15 mobs per hit on Impulsion. KS can hit the double of monster with Lightning SW. IT'S NOT FAIR

Edited July 1, 2017 by fabio95

[Guest -Linh-]

There actually 3 difference type of mech:

- For melee mech yes I agree with you. Something needs to be done. However, since I am not playing mech, GM will need someone to provide full details on how it can be done.

- For auto mech and tanker mech: I think it is good as it supposed to be already,

[kuegen 36]

On 26/06/2017 at 11:51 PM, DarkLink64 said:

In my opinion, both concepts should be used in balancing a game.

 

 

No class should be totally useless at any given scenario. However, classes should not be 100% equal, if they were, the game wouldn't have any kind of fun.

Classes should have strong and weak points, where one class has an advantage against other, but is weak to another one. 

 

To me, the rock paper scissors concept is the best for balancing games.

 

So first u say chars should have week points 

 

On 29/06/2017 at 4:26 PM, DarkLink64 said:

KS is Strong on PvE due to a Bug, that i've already reported. Lightning Sword ignores enemy ABS when stunning the monster. Stun chance is 10% per bolt, where first bolt always stun. Thats why, on SL, it deals 3000 damage while normal hits deals 70~80.

 

If you take this bug out of the equation, KS is not THAT great on PvE.

 

Knight role in the game is already well executed - it is an all-around class, that is good at everything, but do not excel at anything.

 

1v1 PvP - Many classess outdamage KS on 1v1, like Pikeman, Fighter, Archer. By extention, they outdamage in 1v1 Hunting also against non-undead.

1v1 vs Undead - Priestess do it better with Extinction, and does it in unlimited AoE.

AoE - Mage, Shaman, performs better in AoE than KS (assuming there isn't the Lightning Sword bug). 

Attack Speed - Another important factor, many classes are a bit quicker than KS

Tanking - Knight is very good at tanking, however Mechanician is a much better tanking character.

 

 

 

So, I strongly believe Knight is extremely well balanced here, and I use Knight as a paremeter for comparison on my tests. However, it seems that this high damage on Lightning Sword seems to be not going away any soon, because it's ingame for quite a long time, despite early bug reports. On my test data collecting, i'm doing some aggresive PvE improvment suggestions for other classes, so they can at least reach some of Knight Lightning Sword damage output. 

 

now u say ks dosent have one but is balanced, this is the problem of having players testing they allways gonna push so the char they play dont get a nerf, like you.

[fabio95 27]

58 minutes ago, MIB said:

There actually 3 difference type of mech:

- For melee mech yes I agree with you. Something needs to be done. However, since I am not playing mech, GM will need someone to provide full details on how it can be done.

- For auto mech and tanker mech: I think it is good as it supposed to be already,

Yeah but think about .

- Auto MS Biggest DPS of the game. But can't up . Its like a Atalant or Archer. 
-Tank MS is very good. The TANK of the game. but without a party he can't up . 

-My build is Power / Tanker MS . I have too much dmg on AD1 and i'm a tank. But my AoE is too Small Area. Impulsion hits only 15 monsters. But KS Have more dmg and more Area on AoE skill. So i ask you : IT'S REALLY FAIR ? 

Or do a Nerf on KS or Buff MS Impulsion (or spark) 

[DarkLink64 921]

15 hours ago, kuegen said:

So first u say chars should have week points 

 

now u say ks dosent have one but is balanced, this is the problem of having players testing they allways gonna push so the char they play dont get a nerf, like you.

Yeah. They should.

 

But, If a class that isn't best at anything, it should have weak points? I believe it should not.

 

Also, lets define what I believe on Rock Paper Scissors.

 

Weak Point, for me, is something that a class can STILL peform, but are outclassed by other classes. No class should be utterly useless at any given scenario. This is what I want to change in the game. To me, everyone should have at least some basic performance level at all scenarios, and this is something that i'm striving for. Assassin being utterly saddens me a lot. Thats why she was the very first character i've asked to test.

 

Strong point, it is something that a class perform extremely well, that other class can not surpass. Other class can only reach the same level of performance.

 

 

Knight, by default - was and is a class meant to be an all-around class of the game. Strong, but not the strongest, Tanky, but not the best tanker, good exper, but not the best exp.

 

You can disagree with me on this, but I can't think of Knight being stronger than Fighter or Pikeman, or tanking better than Mechanician.

 

The problem of Knight is "Exping". Actually he is the best exper hands down, due to the afforementioned issue with Lightning Sword. Taking this bug out of the skill, automatically Knights becomes an average or even a little bad at Exping. 

 

But, if the Staff wants to retain this level of damage with Lightning Sword, we can't help but increase other classes aswell in PvE - Thats what I'm doing through my research and testing. Actually nerfing Lightning Sword - or any other skill or class - is something that I strongly believe Wartale do not want to do again. For example, these Mage changes got a lot of negative feedback, so the best way is to refine PvE where all classes get stronger (the same thing i'm doing), while doing proper  nerf by small steps on PvP alone.

 

 

And let's not get into personall stuff here, shall we? Because if you do, you gotta show some proof that I'm pushing Knight ahead to be strong just because i'm Knight Player. You gotta backup these claims, or else, your opinions will become bland for me. But let me get your answer - if I'm doing it, why I would volunteer to test and help balancing other class like Assassin, Pikeman, Shaman, Mage and Priestess? Let me go further - what these classess have in common? Yes - they all suck right now on PvE - And i'm basing suggestions on these classes to match current Knight PvE Performance (that is one of the best right now),  or, surprise surprise, to be even stronger than him on PvE :)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by DarkLink64